The Gaming Den

A level check is generally better than a skill tax.

Honestly I'd probably just use a reflex save at varying DCs and only for specific tough maneuvers, like flying through a forest for instance.

Do not require checks for basic flight maneuvers.

Applying d20 system style skills to anything isn't going to fix anything.

That's largely irrelevant to the problems of d20 flight mechanics and potential solutions. But throwing the mess that is skill ranks in there will only make things worse.

Zero-G Combat is commonly accepted as an appropriate skill in most every sci-fi game. Here, I don't think it is.

Realistically (as if that meant anything) I think its an acceptable skill tax if you intend to dogfight or do anything more complicated than hover+blast. Melee combat, for instance. You could argue its covered by the Balance skill, though, and I think at the least that neatly dodges having to add a new skill.

Of course, within the realm of DnD a skill tax for Flight functionally means Fighters Can't Have Nice Things since it should only really affect melee, but that's a problem with DnD in general: melee classes obey physics and spellcasters don't.

If you want more realism then the skill tax makes sense, but "realism" really means FCHNT. If you want to just play the game, I'd suggest using Balance at DC 10 so that a few cross-skill ranks or just a stabilizer item (+skill bonus) are enough, and then why bother?

Just stick to the Flight Classes A-E or whatever and use REF saves if you really need to.

mean_liar wrote:Zero-G Combat is commonly accepted as an appropriate skill in most every sci-fi game. Here, I don't think it is.

Realistically (as if that meant anything) I think its an acceptable skill tax if you intend to dogfight or do anything more complicated than hover+blast. Melee combat, for instance. You could argue its covered by the Balance skill, though, and I think at the least that neatly dodges having to add a new skill.

Of course, within the realm of DnD a skill tax for Flight functionally means Fighters Can't Have Nice Things since it should only really affect melee, but that's a problem with DnD in general: melee classes obey physics and spellcasters don't.

If you want more realism then the skill tax makes sense, but "realism" really means FCHNT. If you want to just play the game, I'd suggest using Balance at DC 10 so that a few cross-skill ranks or just a stabilizer item (+skill bonus) are enough, and then why bother?

Just stick to the Flight Classes A-E or whatever and use REF saves if you really need to.

I do want to make a point that 3D combat is different from 0G combat. Most combat is based with either resistance or momentum as an important factor; even magical fight systems tend to use one or the other as well. Shooting a crossbow in most 3D combat doesn’t impart momentum to the shooter as would be the case in classical 0G combat. (Even when flying, with the exception of free fall there is always the feeling of the direction of gravity; the lack thereof can be disorienting to the senses and the body in general.)

So really, why must mêlée classes obey the laws of physics? (Well actually they don’t. There is more suspension of disbelief in the average 3.5E suit of spiky armor than there is in a wizard’s fireball, not to mention all the insanely stupid weapon types out there.) Perhaps this is worthy of a separate thread but the notion of classical role playing “realism” being justified by the “laws of physics” is nothing but absolute bullshit by people who think that their first level approximations of the real world actually models the real world.

Suspension of disbelief is necessary in any system that is not using a super computer to model. Once you have it, you can give it to anyone; fighter, wizard, librarian, whatever.

MGuy wrote:I'm not really taking a stab at "realism" I just think that Flight, like underwater combat, is distinct enough that it should have mechanics that cover it.

Nobody is saying not to have mechanics for it.

We're just saying not to make it a skill.

As PL said, the d20 system skill checks are an awful mechanic and won't make anything better.

If flight is going to be skill-based, base it off of the movement skill (athletics). Ditto for swimming, climbing, jumping, and running.

MGuy wrote:I'm not really taking a stab at "realism" I just think that Flight, like underwater combat, is distinct enough that it should have mechanics that cover it.

Fighters aren't held back from taking up the skill if it is important to them. Each skill costs the same for everyone as far as the skill system I'm creating goes. If a fighter picks up a means of flight (other than mounted because ride would cover mounted aerial combat) they are welcome to pick up the skill just as a mage might do.

The point of making fly a skill is part of making a flight mechanic for my games. Again I'm not talking about having people make fly checks to fly in a straight line or arbitrary checks for making a turn.

Why not go full on Wuxia and say that the "fly skill" comes online at a certain "heroic" level, 7th, for example*, and anyone can take it and start flying around like they're in a mediocre kung fu movie. It solves the whole "well spellcasters are flying around at 5th (?) and everyone else needs to find a flying shtick or lag behind" without taking the Flight spell completely out of the limelight because casters get to use it for a level or two before everyone's picking up a rank or two of flight.


(*it's purely for example, the reason I picked 7th was that it's the requisite level for the feat of the same purpose Dragon once did for Wuxian games.)

MGuy wrote:I'm definitely open to other Ideas if someone has them/ has seen some.

I use the following for flight rules. I've actually simplified the system a lot so I'm not really worried about flight angles and all that other stuff that the old system does. You know, all the stuff in D&D that nobody even wanted to deal with anyway.

Revised Flight Rules

Maneuverability classes have been simplified to three classes.

Clumsy: While in flight, you cannot take standard actions, though you may convert your standard action to a move action, in effect gaining two move actions instead of move + standard. You may not make attacks of opportunity and do not threaten an area while flying. While flying, your space (but not actual size category) is doubled. You also take a –5 penalty to reflex saves to avoid crashing.
Standard: You may not make attacks of opportunity and do not threaten an area while flying. While flying, your space (but not actual size category) is doubled.
Agile: No penalties.

Crashing: If for whatever reason, you must squeeze into a square while flying or must fly past another creature in the same square, You risk crashing. This is a reflex save, DC 20. +5 to DC if you were flying at over half your speed, and +15 to DC if you were taking a run action.
If you crash, you take 3d6 damage if you were moving at half speed, 6d6 damage if you were moving at full speed, and 10d6 damage if you were running. In addition, your round is over (any other actions are forfeit) and you start to fall. You may make an athletics check to catch yourself assuming you have a hand free.

Converting Old maneuverability classes: In general,
poor and average maneuverability in the old system become standard,
perfect or good maneuverability becomes agile.
Clumsy maneuverability remains clumsy.

I like the idea of a Fly skill more than the current "maneuverability" system, certainly. I would use the current system as a guideline (eg, average or lower must maintain at least half their speed as forward movement, so "avoid stall" would be a relatively low DC check, "hover" (which only good or perfect maneuverability fliers can do) would be a higher one, and "fly backwards" (which only perfect maneuverability can do) is higher than that. Things like "high speed turn" (a low DC for a 90 degree turn, a moderate DC for a u-turn, a higher one for a full somersault, etc) or "dive recovery" (ie "pulling up" after a fall or dive to stop losing altitude) would also by governed by the Flight skill.

It's probably a good idea to have a size modifier on it too -- that way insects and Tiny-sized pixies would automatically be more maneuverable than great wyrm dragons and half-fiend tarrasques and whatnot, which is how it should be.

I'm not sure how to apply it to spells and the like, though. Maybe flight spells give a bonus to Flight skill equal to caster level? For flying vehicles (whether you're fighting a dragon from the deck of an airship or using gnomish jetpacks to navigate mountainous terrain), it'd probably be the pilot's Flight skill with a modifier for the vehicle's inherent maneuverability.

Prak_Anima wrote:Why not go full on Wuxia and say that the "fly skill" comes online at a certain "heroic" level, 7th, for example*, and anyone can take it and start flying around like they're in a mediocre kung fu movie. It solves the whole "well spellcasters are flying around at 5th (?) and everyone else needs to find a flying shtick or lag behind" without taking the Flight spell completely out of the limelight because casters get to use it for a level or two before everyone's picking up a rank or two of flight.

Indeed, Flight should just be a higher-level application of whichever skill you use to handle jumping, whether it's Jump itself or some composite.

Fly should be a check derived from Jumping, Tumbling, Swimming and Balance.

You add up the skill ranks; if you go over your max skill ranks, you get +2 per 5 points over your max ranks.

Creatures use the highest modifier of either Dex or Wis, when determining their modifiers.

Just giving fly at level X isn't a bad idea. Like, at all.

Judging__Eagle wrote:Fly should be a check derived from Jumping, Tumbling, Swimming and Balance.

Just what about the d20 skill system being broken shite do people not get here.

Skill ranks are full of holes. Bad ones. Putting something new and important under their banner is BAD.

You add up the skill ranks; if you go over your max skill ranks, you get +2 per 5 points over your max ranks.

And NO incorporating skill ranks in a weird and exciting new bullshit way is just even worse what the hell is good about this? In what universe do you go "Huh, skill ranks system breaks the RNG at both ends. I know lets require investment in four skills at once to break the bottom of the range more and then give out even more bonuses to further break the top end of the range at the same time."

Creatures use the highest modifier of either Dex or Wis, when determining their modifiers.

So you do that because... WHY THE FUCK DO YOU DO THAT?

OK so clerics get to fly better and fighters and wizards can just fucking suck on it? What? It's not helping. It's stupid window dressing that isn't going to help the basic problem here, that you are fannying about with a broken skill ranks system.

So yeah. I do NOT like to see a "solution" incorporating one of the bigger areas of suck from core d20 into new and exciting fields. It's pure stupid OK?

To make the next part seem more reasonable Phoney, to make the next part seem more reasonable. I never said that I thought long, or critically about what I wrote. I just wrote something. That's the whole point of these forums. Someone writes something, and then the good parts are kept, and the bad things are described as bad things. Getting rid of you would honestly be a step backwards for these forums, I hope you know that.

Anyway, hopefully something better will result, how does this work?

Fly

Just think positive waves Moriarty, positive waves man - Oddball, Kelly's Heroes

Let's be honest, once you get past 6th level, you're no long in Classic Greek hero territory. Now you're more in Wuxia style theatre and cinema. as such, the monsters, and the NPCs tend to require characters to have certain abilities.

Much in the same way that having Player Characters able to cast GMW with a Caster Level equal to their Character Level once per day, starting at level 4; Player Characters should be able to cast Fly.

The version of Fly that is had in mind is a standard action to cast, and lasts for 5 rounds. This version of Fly can only be used once per encounter.

It should probably scale, and it might need an infinite duration at some point. There's a decent chance that there are going to be encounters when you are already flying in the air at higher levels. If there's a massive chasm blocking the way forward, 5 rounds might not be enough, particularly if air elementals attack halfway over.

Anyway, hopefully something better will result, how does this work?

Fly

Just think positive waves Moriarty, positive waves man - Oddball, Kelly's Heroes

Let's be honest, once you get past 6th level, you're no long in Classic Greek hero territory. Now you're more in Wuxia style theatre and cinema. as such, the monsters, and the NPCs tend to require characters to have certain abilities.

Much in the same way that having Player Characters able to cast GMW with a Caster Level equal to their Character Level once per day, starting at level 4; Player Characters should be able to cast Fly.

The version of Fly that is had in mind is a standard action to cast, and lasts for 5 rounds. This version of Fly can only be used once per encounter.

Maybe there should just be a list of spell like abilities that adventurer's get over time, The Adventurer Sphere, or something.

That's a good idea Prak.

And yeah, Phone and RC are just as important to these boards as Frank, Koumei, Maxus, Catharz, Cieling, Iaimeki and everyone else that posts up new stuff. You need critics to point out flaws, and Phone's extremely rigid view points that he applies to everyone (Phone may piss people off, but he's very seldomly ever wrong about what he says; true fact, I've never actually thought "gee, Phone is wrong, bitching, and not solving shit with this post"), and RCs constant sparring with Frank (RC seems to be Frank's constant sparring partner) actually make this place develop better stuff.

If we were all back-patting douchebags, nothing would ever get done. We're here because we're angry, and frustrated about something.

Adventurers

"Frank's Adventure 4: Gold Edition"

Adventurers are above and beyond most people. At level 1 they are high level adventurers that can kill a common man easier than anyone else.

If an Adventurer hits level 4; they have not only bypassed the bulk of the common people of the humanoid races, but have also bypassed the bulk of common adventurers. Seeing as how most Adventurers die from levels 1 to 3, every Adventurer that lives to see level 4 is "something special".

In light of that fact, 4th, and higher, level Adventurers have access to certain things that allow them to keep being Adventurers.

Mystical power from across the land builds up in powerful humanoids. There's your fluff, leave me be for the rest of it.

All of the following are with a Caster Level equal to your Character Level

Character Level: Ability
4: Greater Magic Weapon 1/Day
6: Magic Vestements 1/Day
7: Fly 1/Encounter; 5 Round Duration
8: Greater Teleport 2/Adventure
9: Plane Shift 2/Adventure
10: Fly At-Will; 1 minute cool down between castings
11: Wish Economy, Minor Items & Stats only

That looks like a good setup, but what's the functional difference between "once per encounter" and "once per minute", aside from encounters being ill-defined? And are you giving greater teleport at 8th level to be commensurate with planar binding shenanigans? Greater teleport happens to be a lot better than someone else's greater teleport, self + 50lbs only.


At any rate, I'm not a huge fan of making everyone fly for no damn' reason at all. I'd much rather see the flavor side fleshed out a bit more, where you have the option of attracting a flying mount (a dragon or gryphon, for example), a flying magic item (a broom is classic; a throne would be cool), wings (bat, bird, butterfly, Tyrael, etc), or psychic levitation. Each option would have its own benefits and drawbacks, and every character has the choice of which one best fits her.

Lets see, benefits and drawbacks of each:

Mount
Benefits Lets face it, it's a cohort, so you start with a CR 5 creature that can help fight
Drawback mounts can be killed

Magic Item
Benefits Can be stuffed in a bag of holding, might give cover in the right circumstances
Drawbacks Could be sundered

Wings
Benefits No outside "body" to worry about harm being done to, Maybe a charisma bonus to represent the "Awe" the plebs might feel looking at an "angel" or "demon"
Drawbacks Crit might take away your ability to fly until you heal the damage, called shots can bring you down

Psionic Levitation
Benefits Again, no outside body to worry about harm to, and crits/called shots can't take you down either
Drawbacks flight can be suppressed by magic/psionics

Prak_Anima wrote:Wings
Benefits No outside "body" to worry about harm being done to, Maybe a charisma bonus to represent the "Awe" the plebs might feel looking at an "angel" or "demon"
Drawbacks Crit might take away your ability to fly until you heal the damage, called shots can bring you down

Additionally, being bound with a rope or the like prevents you from flying (unlike levitation or some magic items) and you need specially made, sufficiently light armor.

+1 JE's list on things people should do.

The idea of just giving movement powers around a certain level reminds me of CoH actually. Stealing from there, other options for those who don't want straight flight across the board could include a d-door + feather fall combination (faster than flight, can skip intermediate terrain, but doesn't carry you as far), super jump (higher or farther than flight in the same round or with the same actions, but requires ground or something to land on at the end of your move), or super speed (fails at the height thing and so is probably a bad call, but could cover ground more effectively).